Podcast: Why Tinius Trust wants to buy the Schibsted News Media

In this podcast hosted by journalist and commentator Harald Stanghelle, the chairman of Tinius Trust Ole Jacob Sunde and CEO Kjersti Løken Stavrum elaborate on the reasons behind the desire to take over the ownership of Schibsted's news media.

Harald Stanghelle:

Welcome to this podcast from the Tinius Trust. My name is Harald Stanghelle, and with me here in the studio are Kjersti Løken Stavrum, the CEO of the Tinius Trust, and Ole Jacob Sunde, the chairman of the same trust.

Significant changes are underway in the ownership of Schibsted's media houses. The Tinius Trust is Schibsted's largest owner. The trust now seeks to acquire the editorial parts and take direct ownership of the journalistic operations. This would result in a media ownership that will not be listed on the stock market. This represents a total restructuring of the ownership of the largest newspapers in Norway and partly Sweden. What has happened, Ole Jacob Sunde?

Ole Jacob Sunde:

What has happened is that the trust has proposed to the Schibsted board that we take over the journalistic operations within Schibsted. This is not yet finalised. It will be subject to a general meeting where the shareholders will decide if this is going to happen. The agreement we've reached encompasses all the journalistic operations we all know well. This includes Aftenposten and VG in Norway, as well as Aftonbladet and Svenska Dagbladet in Sweden. In Norway, it also includes regional newspapers like Stavanger Aftenblad and Bergens Tidende and everything that naturally belongs to this. That is what will be included in this agreement.

Harald Stanghelle:

In 1992, the then family-owned Schibsted was listed on the stock market. About five years later, Schibsted entered the Swedish media market. And just over ten years after the listing, several of the most important regional newspapers, as you mentioned, became part of the Schibsted sphere. Now, the plan is for the Tinius Trust to take over this ownership. Why this turning point in Norwegian media history?

Ole Jacob Sunde:

One must remember that Schibsted has always been a forward-leaning and innovative company. I see what is happening now as a natural next step in this development. When digitalisation accelerated in the 2000s, keeping the company united gave a significant advantage. Now, we face different challenges with a new digital revolution through artificial intelligence and everything that comes with it. I believe it is better for both the classifieds company in Schibsted and the media company in Schibsted that each of these entities focuses on the challenges they each face.

Harald Stanghelle:

The esteemed book "Who What Where" still exists, having been published since 1935. Let's use these keywords, Kjersti Løken Stavrum. Who is this trust that is now taking over the ownership of this large media portfolio? To use a phrase that doesn't come naturally to me.

Kjersti Løken Stavrum:

This trust is very forward-thinking and knowledgeable. We are experts on Schibsted, if I may say so. My ambition in this role has always been to be ahead of Schibsted regarding both media development and understanding Schibsted itself. It's extremely challenging, and we probably aren't there on a daily basis. But having that ambition comes quite naturally to us. We are very operational in the sense that the chairman of Schibsted has been someone from the trust for over 20 years. Ole Jacob was the chairman for 20 years. Now, it's Karl-Christian Aagerup, also from us, in the chair. We have the head of the nomination committee. That was John Rein for many years, and now it's me. Trond Berger, who is the head of our finance company, was CFO of Schibsted for nearly 20 years. He's now on the nomination committee of Adevinta, so we have a very operational role and follow the company closely.

Harald Stanghelle:

To elaborate on what the trust is: The origin of the trust is the legacy of the Schibsted family through Tinius Nagell-Erichsen, who transferred his substantial Schibsted assets to a trust upon his death.

Kjersti Løken Stavrum:

He did, and the beauty of a trust is that it's owned by a purpose. There's an intention with that structure, and the purpose of the Tinius Trust is to continue a solid Schibsted, a financially solid Schibsted, so that we can have free, independent, quality publications. It's a fresh perspective on this purpose that has brought us to where we are today.

Harald Stanghelle:

Is that the goal of taking over, if we are to come to the 'what' part of 'Who What Where'?

Kjersti Løken Stavrum:

Yes, I would say so. The goal is to perpetuate this purpose eternally: a solid, good economy to support quality media and journalism forever.

Ole Jacob Sunde:

What's important to add in this context is that the trust, over all these years since 1996, as you rightly pointed out, has also been in constant development. What Tinius did, which was significant, was to transfer control of a large ownership stake in Schibsted. And over the years, the trust has managed this so that it today has substantial financial resources. It's these resources we now wish to use to become an owner of the media business.

Kjersti Løken Stavrum:

That's almost worth an anecdote, because I remember the first meeting I attended just after Tinius died in 2007. There was a meeting at the trust, and there was talk that we might have enough money for the trust to have a website. But we weren't quite sure, although someone had a good connection that made it possible.

Harald Stanghelle:

I don't want to leave my "Who What Where" just yet, and we have now come to "Where". Where will this new construction be led? Will there be a new overarching structure responsible for shared services, digital development, etc.? What's going to happen?

Kjersti Løken Stavrum:

This company, which will continue to be called Schibsted, will necessarily have cross-functional services, but in a different way than the current Schibsted. So, there will be technology development, HR, and such things that are a natural part, indeed an increasingly natural part, of digital companies. But it will also be led by an independent board.

Harald Stanghelle:

So, the name Schibsted will continue, but will it be organised as a new, separate company within the Tinius Trust?

Ole Jacob Sunde:

No, it will be a separate joint-stock company with its own board, structured and composed similarly to the current corporate board of Schibsted. The employees will be represented by three members, and there will be up to six other board members. These will be members selected to fulfil this role and who have the necessary competence to lead this business in a professional manner.

Harald Stanghelle:
But it will not be listed on the stock exchange?

Ole Jacob Sunde:
No, that's not the intention. Over time, one can't rule out a possible listing, but for now, the plan for the acquisition is not to list it on the stock exchange.

Harald Stanghelle:
What will this mean for the editors-in-chief of the current Schibsted newspapers and their independent role, which they must and should have?

Ole Jacob Sunde:

That –

Kjersti Løken Stavrum:

Yes, we can talk about –

Ole Jacob Sunde:

I'm guessing we were going to say the same thing. The role remains unchanged, as it always has been. The editorial principles Schibsted always has followed will continue to be adhered to.

Harald Stanghelle:
And perhaps even more importantly, at least for most people who are part of Schibsted's newspapers, what consequences will this have for all the employees in the various media houses that have been Schibsted-owned up to now?

Ole Jacob Sunde:
What I think will be a great advantage for them is that they will have an owner who is focused on the business that the media houses are running, namely the editorial side. We, as a trust, are a bit different from a stock-listed company because we can have a much longer perspective –

Harald Stanghelle:
A bit different? That's an understatement, isn't it?

Ole Jacob Sunde:
Yes, perhaps. I might be a bit too modest in my expressions, but this is indeed a serious matter. It's a major change, as you pointed out. But my point is that we can have a much longer perspective on media investments. This has been a bit of a challenge until now because, as a stock-listed company, one often has a more short-term focus. It can also be harder when you have other very profitable businesses within the group, like the classifieds business, to find capital for investment. So, it's different from how it is today. Now, I would like to add, if I may, that Schibsted has taken good care of its publications. The digital development in the media has been just as strong as what you have seen within classified ads.

Harald Stanghelle:
Are you expecting cheers from the employees?

Kjersti Løken Stavrum:
I believe they will think this is a good solution. And, of course, it's up to us to explain it thoroughly. And particularly what Ole Jacob just mentioned, that we see a need to invest in the publications going forward, and with this ownership, they won't have to compete for investment funds with the increasingly profitable companies like Finn.

Harald Stanghelle:
What will this mean for the Tinius Trust? How is this purchase financed?

Ole Jacob Sunde:
The purchase is linked to the fact that Schibsted, in parallel with this, as they announced a few weeks ago, is selling a significant portion of their shares in Adevinta. Schibsted has said they will distribute that income to their shareholders. And as an owner of 27 per cent of the shares, a good portion of that will also go to the trust.

Harald Stanghelle:
This can hardly be called an acquisition in the classic sense, given how heavily the Tinius Trust is already involved in the ownership of Schibsted.

Kjersti Løken Stavrum:
Yes and no. Obviously, we are buying more of what we already own. At the same time, we've been negotiating with Schibsted for three months. It has been very important for them and us that these negotiations were conducted in the same manner as if it was an external party attempting an acquisition.

Harald Stanghelle:
Will the Tinius Trust still be a major owner in what remains of today's Schibsted?

Ole Jacob Sunde:
Yes, we will continue our ownership in what will primarily be the classifieds and the associated businesses. So that's our plan.

Harald Stanghelle:
So, there is a role for the Tinius Trust in the company that will continue after this?

Ole Jacob Sunde:
Yes, we must remember that our mandate, as stated in our statutes, is to be a good owner for the whole of Schibsted. So we feel it is fitting that we also continue as an owner in the classifieds business.

Harald Stanghelle:
Even when the name Schibsted goes along with the editorial part, if I understand it correctly.

Ole Jacob Sunde:
Yes, I am sure they will find an excellent name for the remaining business as well; I'm not worried about that. It's the culture, the substance, and the driving force that this company has been built with that is important, and I am sure it will continue to be an exciting company to own in the future as well.

Harald Stanghelle:
When changes occur, significant changes in ownership in the media world, it is often discussed what kind of power shift these changes represent. It's a bit unclear to me: will this lead to a new media power centre, or is it simply as the status quo in a new form we must analyse this?

Ole Jacob Sunde:
Harald, you used the word 'rearrangement' when introducing the podcast, and for me, that's what it is. Throughout the years, the Tinius Trust has always had a significant position in Schibsted as the largest owner. And that will continue. A slightly larger owner, that's true, but still the dominant owner. And we will be just that – an owner. The operational management remains the same. Siv Juvik Tveitnes will still be the manager. A board will take responsibility, as I mentioned earlier. So, I see it more as a continuity than a major change in the Norwegian media landscape.

Harald Stanghelle:
That was Ole Jacob Sunde's way of analysing power and media power. Kjersti Løken Stavrum, you have a slightly different background as an editor and as the Secretary-General of the Norwegian Press Association, and you are used to analysing media power. From a media power perspective, what does this change represent?

Kjersti Løken Stavrum:
I think it will be analysed as more of a development we have already seen, namely that more and more publications are owned by trusts. It is a suitable ownership form for editorial media, that both has a business that should be profitable but also has a significant social mission. A trust is suitable because it is owned for a purpose, which resonates well with what journalism is doing today. And also, as Ole Jacob said, it has a long-term perspective and not the quarterly stress that the stock market necessarily must have. Therefore, I think this will confirm a megatrend regarding ownership and media.

Harald Stanghelle:
Will you and Ole Jacob Sunde rise or fall in the rankings of power people in Norwegian media after this?

Kjersti Løken Stavrum:
I haven't really thought about that. I don't think it's that important, actually.

Ole Jacob Sunde:
For my part, it should at least remain lowered.

Harald Stanghelle:
Internationally, trusts are a fairly common form of ownership for newspapers. But through the 30 years I have been in the Schibsted environment, I have heard a lot of scepticism bordering on contempt for media owned by trusts. It was more than implied that they were sedate owners who did not stimulate new thinking and forward-leaning development. But now, the owner of Norway's most important media house will be a trust. And it is taken off the stock market, Ole Jacob Sunde.

Ole Jacob Sunde:
Yes, I am aware of that criticism. The only thing I will allow myself to answer when you ask me so directly, is that if you look at the history of the Tinius Trust, we have been a forward-leaning owner in Schibsted. Schibsted has had a solid development over the last 20–25 years and has led the digital development. It has created great values. The Schibsted media are even more admired today than 25 years ago, precisely because they have been forward-thinking and had good management and access to capital, and therefore could actively invest in digital development.

Harald Stanghelle:
Have your years in The Guardian sphere made you look more favourably on trusts as sole media owners?

Ole Jacob Sunde:
The Guardian's trust has survived even longer. It was established 60 years before the Tinius Trust, and The Guardian is absolutely alive and well, so, of course, I draw inspiration from there.

Kjersti Løken Stavrum:
The Tinius Trust is very proud to be the owner of a media company like Schibsted, which is world-leading and so recognised and sought after. At every significant conference, you always find someone from Schibsted on stage. I don't think anyone believes that we are coming in as owners to slow things down. And that's not how any other trusts that are media owners operate these days either. We have Egmont and the Amedia Trust, which I perceive as similarly forward-leaning, and they all know that one must evolve to live forever.

Harald Stanghelle:
But in retrospect, has the stock market's unforgiving quarterly capitalism been too harsh a master for the media, who are exposed to strong economic fluctuations?

Ole Jacob Sunde:
There are a lot of good things that come with a stock listing, but a listing is not always right. And with the major challenges we are facing now, I think that the long-term thinking that a trust can have is a better tool than the stock market.

Harald Stanghelle:
Would it be correct to say that the demands of a return have been too tough for the media, who are exposed to strong economic fluctuations?

Ole Jacob Sunde:
The problem in a stock market context is that you are often penalised if you make investments that pay off in the long term. And if you have to make major investments in today's stock market, it will be in personnel, it will be in marketing, and it affects the bottom line of the business. And the stock market generally does not like that.

Harald Stanghelle:
I didn't hear a clear yes or no, but that was perhaps not to be expected.

Ole Jacob Sunde:
Well, you can say that there are good things with both the stock market and a more purpose-driven model, so it's not that one does not have its place. Both have their place, each in its own way.

Kjersti Løken Stavrum:
And it's also the case that where we are now, Schibsted is a very interesting company because the Tinius Trust has been a significant trendsetter all along. And the fact that Schibsted's media are now so competitive, viable, and digitally developed is due to the process they have been through and the demands that have been made. So, it's hard to turn around and say that it hasn't been important when you see where it is today.

Harald Stanghelle:
With Schibsted off the stock market and under a trust like Tinius, is there a sigh of relief to be expected among editors, journalists, and other employees in the media houses?

Ole Jacob Sunde:
What we have tried to do is to lay a good foundation for the operation going forward. We hope that the thinking behind these decisions is shared by the editors, staff, and, of course, commercial leaders, and that it will provide an opportunity to develop this in a good way going forward. But it will be up to the individual to decide whether they agree or not.

Harald Stanghelle:
And some might be celebrating too early, because money still needs to be made in Schibsted?

Kjersti Løken Stavrum:
What we are facing still needs a sustainable business model. I really like what VG's editor-in-chief Gard Steiro often repeats: we have gone through a digital transformation, and now we are facing a transformation of the digital. What artificial intelligence entails in terms of opportunities, but also challenges, or the need for rapid change – we know too little about that. But I am quite sure that even greater changes are coming than what we have experienced in the years behind us.

Harald Stanghelle:
Yes, because that's one of the major success factors that has been noticed internationally, that Schibsted's publications have managed the development of this revolution we are in, from being primarily paper-based to digital, which has now taken over mostly everything.

Ole Jacob Sunde:
Well, that was a leading question, journalist Stanghelle, so to that, I can only answer yes.

Harald Stanghelle:
You're welcome to correct my questions. Usually, you say that you don't interfere editorially, but it's okay with an exception in a podcast like this.

Kjersti Løken Stavrum:
I will come to his rescue and say that what he's trying to say is that he acknowledges the question.

Harald Stanghelle:
Yes, that was a generous way to interpret it. Back to seriousness, what remains of Schibsted without the publications?

Ole Jacob Sunde:
Well, it remains a very viable company with classified ads in four Nordic countries. The restructuring they are doing there, focusing on verticals such as jobs, cars, real estate, etc., is well underway, and I have great faith in the company's long-term prospects.

Harald Stanghelle:
So now it's just business there, no purpose?

Ole Jacob Sunde:
No, that's not the case. A classifieds company today is also a company that contributes significantly to societal development. If you consider the importance of reuse in the fight against CO2 emissions, it's a company that definitely has a crucial societal role.

Harald Stanghelle:
Looking back, Ole Jacob Sunde, when Schibsted was listed on the stock market in July 1992, did anyone think the company would become a classifieds giant?

Ole Jacob Sunde:
No, they didn't. However, classifieds were a very important part of the two newspapers owned back then, especially Aftenposten. It was a significant advertising medium. This has been the case since Schibsted's first newspaper was launched a long time ago.

Harald Stanghelle:

In 1860.

Ole Jacob Sunde:

Yes.

Kjersti Løken Stavrum:

It started with classifieds, and then they needed something in between the ads. So, in that sense, the income came before the expenses.

Harald Stanghelle:

This mirrors, of course, a digital revolution, both in the industry we work in and in society in general. But Schibsted was originally a newspaper company – Aftenposten, and from the 1960s, VG. Then, the classifieds section increasingly dominated. Was it a kind of a cuckoo in the nest that eventually overshadowed the media part?

Kjersti Løken Stavrum:
I wouldn't call it that. But the two units have become very different. They were once more intertwined, but the development showed that each needed its own dedicated attention – the classifieds and the editorial publications. In the competition for attention and investment funds that we discussed earlier, it will be better for both to be separated, having different boards and structures.

Ole Jacob Sunde:

That a business is very successful doesn't mean it's a cuckoo in the nest. We should give credit where it's due. Developing an international classifieds business from a Norwegian perspective is something to be very proud of.

Harald Stanghelle:

But this has led to the work currently being done to restructure ownership because the editorial part requires a special kind of dedicated attention. Is that a fair interpretation?

Ole Jacob Sunde:
No, I wouldn't say that. These two businesses have benefited greatly from each other over the years – both the media and the classifieds. Keeping Schibsted together has been a wise decision for a long time. Now, we are facing new challenges, a new crossroads, as we mentioned at the beginning, and one must be willing to re-evaluate.

Kjersti Løken Stavrum:

What has characterised Schibsted over the years has been leaders and a culture in the company that took risks and led the way in the developments they saw on the horizon, and we have to believe that will happen now as well.

Harald Stanghelle:
You have literally followed this from the beginning, Ole Jacob Sunde. You were an advisor to Tinius Nagell-Erichsen, you worked on the establishment of the trust, the stock market listing, the whole story. Is it, in a way, the circle being completed now that the Tinius Trust takes over the reins and says its farewell to the stock market?

Ole Jacob Sunde:
Well, it's at least completing a circle in that when it was listed in 1992, it was the newspaper part that was listed, and Tinius was the largest shareholder at that time, driving that process. Now, it's the trust proposing to take over the media part, so in that sense, that is correct.

Harald Stanghelle:
Speaking of Tinius, we've used that term and that name quite a few times. Twenty years ago, everyone in Norway, at least in the media, knew who Tinius Nagell-Erichsen was. Today, many don't associate that name with anything except that he gave his name to a trust. But who was he?

Ole Jacob Sunde:
First and foremost, for me personally, he was a media mentor. He was an economist like I was, but he was deeply interested in the media, understood them, and he stood for sound and healthy values in running a media business. He was a part of the owner family, the part that took the most care of the media part, was most interested in it, and gave it a future.

Kjersti Løken Stavrum:

I had the pleasure of leading the work of reviving A-magasinet, and I went out to Høvikodden where he lived with the first new A-magasinet as its editor, and it was very reassuring, I must say, to see that we were owned by a person who sat early one morning at his kitchen table with a massive pile of newspapers, reading them thoroughly with a large magnifying glass, sitting in his robe.

Harald Stanghelle:

And the concept of profit versus purpose was central to Tinius. He cared about both.

Ole Jacob Sunde:

Tinius cared about both. He believed that newspapers that couldn't pay their bills would lose their independence, and I understand that principle very well. Therefore, he was concerned that newspapers should be run according to both sound editorial principles and sound economic principles.

Harald Stanghelle:

Tinius often repeated, half in jest, half seriously, that after his death, he would assume the role of a useful ghost that would flutter the curtains if the stewards of his legacy strayed off course. Is it this useful ghost that has shown itself in what is now happening?

Ole Jacob Sunde:
Yes, you can say that. Much of the values Tinius stood for, we have emphasised in the trust and carried forward. I said he was a mentor to me, and these are very sound values and principles that are being applied, and continuing them in today's market seems natural to me and, I believe, very important for the business.

Kjersti Løken Stavrum:

We live off a great legacy from Tinius, and when we have made big changes over the years, we sometimes remind ourselves of those curtains and look towards them to see if they flutter or not. I don't think they are fluttering now.

Ole Jacob Sunde:

The only thing I would add is that although Tinius had an excellent grasp of technology, he outright said that he didn't understand the digital side. So, in that area, you could say there has been a change.

Harald Stanghelle:

"The newspaper life," Tinius said, "the newspaper life is the best life there is." So, my hope is that all the employees in the newspapers that you are about to take ownership of will experience this. I think I will dare to wish you good luck.

Ole Jacob Sunde:

Thank you very much.

Kjersti Løken Stavrum:

Thank you.